Janet says, "That is exactly what we hoped to show in the hypertext. Specifically what people have done to gain a voice, what people can do now and in the future. We are hoping that administrators will read this. We are hoping that by reading this hypertext they will have a better idea of what many are doing for education. Of course we cannot know if they will. But we wanted a place where folks who work on MOOs could bring their administrators and say, "Look. I am not the only one." In addition, since many administrators will never take the great leap into MOO themselves, we hope they will find some information here about how MOO can answer some of their needs."

Dickie asks, "What is it that keeps Jesters in their place? Once that is known maybe something can be done about it."

Janet says, "Quite often what keeps Jesters in their place is the fact that many of us are students, either graduate students or even undergraduates. Not a few of us are part time instructors with little clout. How much we are consulted about our work varies from institution to instition. Much of what we have to say has more to do with labor practices than MOO. The surveys told us that those institutions which value the work of all their faculty and students have gained the most in terms of developing technology which fits the institutional mission statement."

Kristian says, "Some Jesters are not even connected with the institution itself. They can be students from other schools, or even from different contries."

Janet says, "We can certainly point to productive models of advisement which we garnered from the surveys and the MOO discussions. Sharon Cogdill noted that she had full support from her administrators. Elsie, a full time tenured faculty member can insist that her graduate students incorporate MOO into their course work, Jan Holmevik shares the benefits he has enjoyed from his MOO work. But the fact remains that those who are not already full time, who are not tenured, or who are not on staff, have a much harder time tapping the resources, such as grants."

Kristian says, "In addition, the fact remains that many of us do work for free. We hope to correct that by collaborating on the grant writing process."

Dickie says, "But I don't believe the tones I read on the title page--helpless or unwillingness to engage in the academic process--are appropriate for the rest of the content of this web. I'm convinced when I run into statements like this: "all involved are responsible for acquiring the necessary means to to take part in the assessment process."

Kristian says, "You are right. We are not helpless or unwilling to take part. But as we pointed out before we often have little say in the decision making process. In this hypertext, we are trying to show how to change what may be perceived as powerlessness. "

Janet says, "Whether we like it or not, the "tones" we hear are important because they are real despair coming from people who work very hard."

Dickie says, "But I do get tired of claims that a monastic order is keeping innovation downtrodden simply because it's innovation. So yes, there are many institutional forces acting to demean and undervalue what MOOers can do; there is a "top down" hierarchy that maintains the status quo. But I want to get on with it."

Janet says, "Yeah. I didn't like using that stale metaphor much either. But honestly, there is a sense of a religious order sometimes. And just when I convince myself that the times they are-a-changing, smack, I am reminded again that there is a fairly rigid hierarchy in place. We pointed to the more collaborative model of the IT team at CSUN because even at CSUN there are the nimble and "bottom up" folks...fully supported from the top down. But there are still monastic departments, many barriers. And again, we hoped that showing a more "collaborative" model would serve as support for those who need it." We would love to just "get on with it." We would love to say, as Bill_K does, "Meet me on the MOO. Really that's what we do. Then we are asked to step back and ones more explain MOO, define MOO, answer the question for folks, "who am I?"

Dickie says, "So what do we do now? The list of attributes that MOO brings to the game (by Bruce Rafnel) was quite useful. So was the TWT report at Tweety"

Janet says, "Yes. As Bruce points out it's time to get out of our rut. Let's MOO it along. Indeed. But Bruce also advises that we demand a certain level of respect as well."

Kristian says, "And, we need to do it, not just talk about it. We have shown and talked about how good MOO is and what can be done there. Now is the time to get people MOOing. Maybe even talk about pay for the people maintaining and developing it."

Dickie says, "The "demanding" that gets expressed in the conclusion, is counter productive, I think. Making MOOing possible, simple, and advantageous for admins. trying to contact and evaluate MOO designers on-line seems more productive to me."

Janet says, "Perhaps that comes across as a bit too strident. There are two issues here, really. Supply and demand. If we have supplied the help, I think we can demand it be used. We have built an easily accessible conferencing space. Let me explain. Setting up, designing, and maintaining a MOO takes hours of hard work. We implemented this space for users. We can "theorize" to our heart's content, but if we do not get feedback from the end-users, how are we to answer their needs? It's the catch-22. Here's a scenario.

The boss walks into the office and says, "Hey. We need a better system for such and such a need. Put in action, please." After setting up the system, the employee says, "Hey boss, take a look and tell me if this fits your needs. Here's how it works." The boss replies, "I'll look at it someday."

Kristian says, "We could demand that people asking what a MOO is and what it can be used for, come to the MOO and see, not just nod when we explain. and then come running for help later, when they HAVE to do it for some reason. We could also demand that people comming on the MOO use the help provided, instead of all asking the same questions. Maybe we could even demand that people who want to evaluate the work we do there, come to the MOO and have a look."

Janet says, "If I do not demand that I be taken seriously, quite likely I won't. That demand can be contrued from how I view my own work. I take my play very seriously. I can demand that others do so as well by showing the research I have done, pointing to the work of others, and well....doing what we have done here. I think at some point we do have to demand that people meet us on the MOO if that is where our work is...we can especially demand that those in positions of evaluating us meet us on the MOO. Perhaps I am just being stubborn here, digging in my heels and insisting on what i perceive as a fair evaluation process. It's rather a strange set of circumstances. My MA thesis was on MOO. Only one member of my thesis committee had ever MOOed. What a strange twist when one teaches one's evaluators to "read" the work, to use the technology. My work, by definition, demanded that my evaluators learn something new. We learned much together because they were up to the "demand.""

Dickie says, "I would like a link to all those job descriptions you mention in "@Create $Job Named Education".

Kristian says, "That would be good for some of the ongoing projects we have planned. So we will put that on the agenda."

Dickie says, "BTW, in "Moo Workers Unite! Sheesh!" you mention the silence around financial matters. I found the same reluctance/ignorance about matters fiscal in the responses to a questionnaire conducted on technology-rich facilities. I interpreted it as either ignorance or the act of playing those cards carefully in era of shrinking budgets."

Kristian says, "Or, it might be a sore point for many...they do the work, but do not get the pay."

Dickie says, "Back to reactions: Our grant writing might be more successful if instead of imagining them as "them" we try to feel the pressures happening in an administrators' positions and couch appropriate MOO pedagogy in terms they might understand. I'm not a sophisticated MOO-ed person, but it seems (as you get at here in several spots) that more outreach and less us - them will help."

Kristian says, "I think this is what many are trying, calling their MOO by different names, using, virtual, environment, educational, conferencing...which is all fine, since we do need to use language recognized by the people we are trying to address."

Dickie says, "I find it hard to imagine having it both ways. That is, having stable respect and financial rewards AND still operating (publishing) only in the MOO world as this suggests: "MOO is about the ongoing converstion about the process itself; MOO is about meta realities, and the end products, our "publications" are contingent, situational, reflections on that ongoing process, re-visioning, reflection. Such is the play of MOO."

Janet says, "Those who do not MOO do NOT know what is valuable there. A MOO is both a community and a publication. You point to another problem. Cynthia Burton and Jan Holmevik have one (maybe even two) pulp books coming out on MOO. That is important ....YET...even reading these books will not give people a sense of MOO. I know, once their book/s are out we will be inundated with folks who want to set uop their own MOOs with no clue about what MOO is. The reason we have so many nodes/lexia/files including many quotes (which would NOT be tolerated offline BTW) is we wanted to give a sense of MOO...the "being there."

In a sense, if you felt an unease at the beginning of this hypertext...starting with the feeling of helplessness, perhaps it was because that *is* where we were starting from: real people in real time. The Jester project is a contingent reality. A very contingent set of circumstances, and the fact that we freeze-frame it...takes some of the life out of it. It is "virtual" MOO. Tell you what, meet us on the MOO, and we will help you imagine it.

Dickie says, "I think we ought to be MOOing across the curriculum BUT I can't imagine taking this rationale in with me to convince the uninitiated in another department. Some of the other "what could/should be dones" were more useful."

Janet says, "Fair enough."

Dickie says, "Here's an example that I'm going to try on a guy in the Business dept. here at MTU who wants to write this big grant for a Mining History multimedia project with 3D fly-throughs and interactive components. I will suggest that he could storyboard the whole effort on a MOO as a pilot project (big NSF $ here) and then use it as a demo. for the NSF folks when he goes for the 3D grant."

Kristian says, "That is a good idea. There are some MOOs around, specially designed for sciences. And there are "labs" made to simulate the actions taking place in a physical lab, with shocks and bangs and all that follows. MOOs can be used for much more than writing, and we want to MOO across all curriculum and grade levels."

Dickie says "I like the following anecdote because I see the implications of F-2-F meetings now."

Janet says, "This may be true. OTOH, too many people are not making simple demands such as Bill_K makes when his sign on his office door demands that folks contact him on the MOO if they wish to speak to him. The MOO is the place where he works. When people walk into his office, they intterupt his work *with other people*, something they probably would not do if the *people* were sitting in Bill_K's office. Now, "demand" may be too strong a word. However, there is something about technology that brings out some of the worst kind of dependence in people. To wit, having to visit the office of every admin who wants to take a look at the MOO because the person has no telnet helper application drivers yet. OTHOH (Ifeel like Tevyah here) I am always more than happy to install software so that my admins feel more comfortable. Perhaps demand should be more like "insist." Perhaps once we have sat with a person, hand holding for a session or two, THAT would be the time to insist they take some responsibility for more than throwing up their hands in exasperation. Do we ask any less of our students?

Dickie says, "I see the complexity now. We meet in many venues but set guidelines for our own accessability in order to survive. There is no good reason that the MOO shouldn't be one of those venues nor any good reason that explicit statements about how those MOO contact hours for instructional or administrative purposes couldn't be built into T&P guidelines."

Kristian says, "We will still have the problem with people involved that are not part of the institution. Since MOOs are connected to the Internet, it is one of its strengths: local is now global. So what do we do about the youngster, located on another continent, who develops the "object" teachers really need? All MOOs have their Tbone."

Janet asks,"Dickie, do you have a sense of different voices? I like the way you heard the "tones" of the words."

Dickie says,"Actually yes. I even remember one obstinate person's voice who said twice that "the technology is just not there yet." or something like that. But s/he got little response. I also heard Andrea, Mike?, Sharon cog., Janice Walker, ... I went to the logs a couple of times. It's very hard to replicate the speed of comprehension and shared intelligence that happens in a MOO session. It doesn't nec. happen to one who then reads the log. It's a lot like ethnographic representation. "How do I get the sense of the power of this encounter into my thick description?"

Kristian says, "Through hours and hours of MOOing..compare it to reading a book. We are not usually able to assume the personna of a character in the first books we read. But after a few hundred books, it becomes easier to read and understand them."

Janet asks Dickie, "Did you actually look at the MOO logs? Were the log notes explanatory enough? Part of what we hope to do is show how people can use MOO logs."

Dickie says, "I did but didn't get the sense (could have just skimmed by) that you were trying to show how logs could be used. I'd make it more obvious. For teachers, it will be a critical point and I suspect that non-MOOers will read this as an intro. to MOO-ed as well as for the T&P interest."

Kristian says, "We still have some revisions on that stuff."

Janet pokes Kristian, "I know!"

We would both like to thank Dickie Selfe and the Kairos folks for opportunity to work in this collaborative manner.

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Janet Cross Kristian Fuglevik

*Jesters Studies CFP CMC